Food for Thought

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This topic contains 49 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by ntaylor ntaylor 3 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #138359

    Tom
    Member

    My kids are taking a class called Youth in Government. Their first assignment is to recommend two laws they wished were introduced to Florida and identify three existing laws that are confusing/misleading/need clarification. It has to be State Law and not Federal. The following are discussions that have taken place over the past few days…. No conclusions or judgement, just looking for insight and opinion to start them out on their journey! I am glad they are asking these questions. There are MANY more, but tried to limit them to the scope of this forum.

    In the spirit of generating conversation and getting them ideas we offer the following topics for input here:
    1: There are too many exceptions to who needs a saltwater license. Specifically why are people over 65 exempted and those on welfare? They have more time to fish and impact the resource more. And some (retired) have more discretionary income and those who moved to Florida upon retirement have not contributed to the cause over their lifetime. Shouldn’t the people on medicaid/welfare be looking for a job instead of fishing? Too many exceptions are confusing to enforcement.
    2: There are too many restrictive manatee zones. Manatees are at a historical high given the environment. Most of the zones are the result of developers buying off development at the expense of recreational fishermen and in areas that do not affect the manatees (see east shore Tampa Bay).
    3: The rule requiring a boating course for younger people is discriminatory. Everyone who operates a boat should be required to have a boater safety course documented. Every time we are on the water we see an idiot.
    4: The license fees for out of state people are too low. Most states are 10:1 in their ratio.
    5: The fact that if you or me (or an out of state angler) go with a licensed guide you do not have to purchase a license. Many states require this. And, the cost for a 6 pack license is only $200 per year. People who can afford a charter can afford a license. And these people take a disproportionate amount of the harvested fish. For $200 a year for all those clients.
    6: Why does a guide who is in a powerboat have to have license but those who are in a paddle fishery do not? The paddle folks claim they are more efficient in catching/harvesting.
    7: Cats are well documented as causing harm to native wildlife, especially birds. They are predators. Why is it OK to leave them free outside of our homes?
    8: Fertilizer. Agree it contributes to algae blooms. Data supports that. But why ban from personal use starting next year and still allow for golf courses, many of which are located near estuaries?
    Looking to share opinions and ideas. Create constructive conversation. Show my kids that outdoorsmen/women have valid or at least passionate opinions.
    Thanks in advance! Tom (Da Beagle)
  • #138362
    Neil Taylor
    Neil Taylor
    Keymaster

    Good list. I don’t have time to give input tonight. There are some solid reasons for some things.

    There are also items that aren’t listed at all.

  • #138363
    Neil Taylor
    Neil Taylor
    Keymaster

    Had to come back and say the biggest one:

    Shorebound. Someone will try to refute me and say “they do have to have a license”. OK, how much does that cost now? ($0).

    y’all might want to look at the reef species/circle hook rule too.

  • #138373

    John J Roche
    Member

    I would chose the question about feral cats. I understand it is not legal to allow your cat or dog to roam free. Cats are major predators and harm multitudes of wildlife.

    At what point is a pet owner liable for the damages done to our resources.

    Another topic is the feeding of wildlife, are penalties strong enough to deter it? Feeding alligators endanger people, feeding scrub jays increases their chances for extinction.

    And so on.

    Good post Tom.

  • #138375
    Snookums
    Snookums
    Participant

    Here are a few amusing links to out dated Florida laws.

    http://www.idiotlaws.com/dumb_laws/florida/

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1266837/amusing_outdated_florida_laws.html

    Summary:
    And for anyone visiting the Sunshine state on vacation, I just thought you’d want to know about the following: You may not kiss your wife’s breasts. Oral sex is illegal. It is considered an offense to shower naked. When having sex, only the missionary position is legal. So, don’t have fun on your vacation or you might have to pay the price!

  • #138376

    Just so you know, a license to accommodate six fishermen with a charter captain costs $400.

    A license is required by a charter captain in paddle boat also, but you will only need a fishing license to accommodate up to four fishermen, assuming you don’t have over four, which costs $200. for up to four fishermen.

    I’m not trying to correct you, but just keep you informed.
    I hope that I was of some help to all.

  • #138380

    Tom
    Member

    Terry and others – just looking for ideas, perspectives and opinions. The purpose of the class is to get them informed and eventually involved in the legislative process in Florida. At the end they will actually be making a bill for presentation.

    Looking for ideas and concepts to get them interested.
    Thanks for any and all input, not saying that I agree or disagree with any of their topics posted (I do but remain silent!).
    I think one of the things this will teach them is exactly the difficulty of seeing/hearing all sides/perspectives.
    Tom
    P.S. Thanks for the clarification on the 6 pack license.
  • #138411

    JOHN BATY
    Member

    chumiester wrote: Just so you know, a license to accommodate six fishermen with a charter captain costs $400.

    A license is required by a charter captain in paddle boat also, but you will only need a fishing license to accommodate up to four fishermen, assuming you don’t have over four, which costs $200. for up to four fishermen.

    I’m not trying to correct you, but just keep you informed.
    I hope that I was of some help to all.

    1. ACTUALLY THE LICENSE TO COVER 4 PEOPLE ON MY BOAT COSTS 235 YEAR. FYI
    2. Being a USCG Boat Examiner I would love to see everyong operating
    a boat have to take a course. A state certified course. not a fly by night computer course.
    3.Everybody who drives has to have a drivers license. I say everyone who fishes in saltwater needs to PAY for a license imho
    4.The license covering out of staters on my boat is touchy. If they had to buy a 100.00 license then the cost of the trip goes up 3-5 hundred according to how many go making the trip way to expensive. We would definately loss lots of business if that were the case in my opinion.
    5. If you are charging people to take them fishing you a considered a guide as far as I am concerned and should have a captains license.Even if you are wading or in a kayak. IMHO
    Hope this helps

  • #138424

    Tom
    Member

    Thanks John! That is what I am looking for – opinions.

  • #138428

    saltlife84
    Member

    I big law that I would like to see acctually be put into affect is a drug test for welfare checks or any other gov paid check.
    I agree that if you fish you need a license. Which I believe is now the case. No matter if you fish from a boat or shoreline you need to have a license.
    Something that I would like to see looked into more is the python issue in the everglades. As we all know they are a none natural predator, but what most may not know is the dominante land predator of the everglades the Florida panther is virtually none exsistant. So having the python isn’t all bad, it eats the mammals and rodents the panther no longer does. Not to mention it in itself is a food source. Baby pythons provide food to herons and cranes, other snakes, and any other animal that eats small reptiles.
    I feel that the demand for commercial fishing is rediculas, there is just as much money spent when people go out and buy tackle, equipment, fuel, licenses, charters, bait as there is when people go to the store and buy fish. Yeah commercial fishing gives people jobs but they can still have jobs and lower the limits they take. Stop taking away the recreational fishermen rights to fend for themselves. Not to mention what does going to the store do for family values, life lessons NOTHING. but what does taking your family fishing on the boat, or taking your child to the park to go fishing do, more then words can describe.

  • #138443

    Tom
    Member

    Thanks Saltlife!

  • #138462

    Beagle wrote:

    In the spirit of generating conversation and getting them ideas we offer the following topics for input here:
    1: There are too many exceptions to who needs a saltwater license. Specifically why are people over 65 exempted and those on welfare? They have more time to fish and impact the resource more. And some (retired) have more discretionary income and those who moved to Florida upon retirement have not contributed to the cause over their lifetime. Shouldn’t the people on medicaid/welfare be looking for a job instead of fishing? Too many exceptions are confusing to enforcement. Most of them have the money too. But if these people paid their license fees all their lives I can see that side of it too. Lots of the former old timers on here that were in the category bought their licenses even though it wasn’t legally required.
    2: There are too many restrictive manatee zones. Manatees are at a historical high given the environment. Most of the zones are the result of developers buying off development at the expense of recreational fishermen and in areas that do not affect the manatees (see east shore Tampa Bay). There are unfortunately too many ID10T boat operators too. I’m no manatee advocate but these zones aren’t going away and neither are the idiot boaters either.
    3: The rule requiring a boating course for younger people is discriminatory. Everyone who operates a boat should be required to have a boater safety course documented. Every time we are on the water we see an idiot. It has been brought up for decades. I don’t think it is discrimminatory, I think it’s bad that every boat operator doesn’t have to show a license that they had training.
    4: The license fees for out of state people are too low. Most states are 10:1 in their ratio. Don’t you guys still like tourism dollars? I guess no one visits from out-of-state to fish there anymore.
    5: The fact that if you or me (or an out of state angler) go with a licensed guide you do not have to purchase a license. Many states require this. And, the cost for a 6 pack license is only $200 per year. People who can afford a charter can afford a license. And these people take a disproportionate amount of the harvested fish. For $200 a year for all those clients. How do you know that? My neighbors on either side of me in Tampa harvested more fish than the guides I knew down there.
    6: Why does a guide who is in a powerboat have to have license but those who are in a paddle fishery do not? The paddle folks claim they are more efficient in catching/harvesting. Because the paddleboat people don’t have the clients in the kayak with them?? A vessel for hire situation is different without question. And since it is not a vessel for hire situation, the clients would have to license themselves. Right Mr Baits?
    7: Cats are well documented as causing harm to native wildlife, especially birds. They are predators. Why is it OK to leave them free outside of our homes? Really? Those lazy creatures are predators? How many people are really living in nesting areas where their cats are having an impact?
    8: Fertilizer. Agree it contributes to algae blooms. Data supports that. But why ban from personal use starting next year and still allow for golf courses, many of which are located near estuaries? Because the lawmakers are sissies. I’ve sat in meetings that are comparable to this same type situation and watched the people cut the deal of “this applies to law starting next month”. Then there is a brief discussion and then it’s “but not if you are a golf course owner” as if it was some kind of compromise. The golf course doesn’t have to be near the estuary by the way: It just has to the in the watershed of the estuary.
    Thanks in advance! Tom (Da Beagle)
  • #138480

    Tom
    Member

    Mr. Jingles – thanks for all the replies.

    Regarding #5 can you give me your neighbors contact info so I can fish with them?

    Regarding #7 cats are a serious problem with predation. Really. Look it up.
    Thanks again for the input! Tom
    Thanks for the input.
  • #138481

    Tom
    Member

    Mr. Jingles – thanks for all the replies.

    Regarding #5 can you give me your neighbors contact info so I can fish with them?

    Regarding #7 cats are a serious problem with predation. Really. Look it up.
    Thanks again for the input! Tom
  • #138492

    Jim Klopfer
    Member

    As a professional guide for 20 years, I will address these;

    4: The license fees for out of state people are too low. Most states are 10:1 in their ratio.
    I hang out at CB’s on Siesta Key quite a bit. The vast majority of visiting anglers are VERY casual and pose no great threat to local fish populastions. Higher fees will deter them from fishing and therefore spending money. Most tourists already spend a lot of money while they are here.
    5: The fact that if you or me (or an out of state angler) go with a licensed guide you do not have to purchase a license. Many states require this. And, the cost for a 6 pack license is only $200 per year. People who can afford a charter can afford a license. And these people take a disproportionate amount of the harvested fish. For $200 a year for all those clients.
    Again, I work out of CBs. In the spring there might be 8 guides wiith 1-4 anglers on each boat. Imagine all of them standing in line to buy a license at 7:00 am while the guys are trying to open up the shop? a logistical nightmare. I am from MD and they have a “boat” license for recreational anglers. It covers anyone on the boat, works great. Also, while I fish inshore, I would estimate that no more than 40% of my clients kill fish, and then it is only a few for dinner. Most locals kill more than tourists, IMO.
    6: Why does a guide who is in a powerboat have to have license but those who are in a paddle fishery do not? The paddle folks claim they are more efficient in catching/harvesting.
    A pet peeve of mine is how the kayak guides are not required to have a U.S.C.G. license, it makes no sense to me. It is a guides trip for commercial gain, they just use several boats. I am not familiar with fishing license regs.
  • #138504
    Neil Taylor
    Neil Taylor
    Keymaster

    captklopfer wrote: As a professional guide for 20 years, I will address these;

    6: Why does a guide who is in a powerboat have to have license but those who are in a paddle fishery do not? The paddle folks claim they are more efficient in catching/harvesting.
    A pet peeve of mine is how the kayak guides are not required to have a U.S.C.G. license, it makes no sense to me. It is a guides trip for commercial gain, they just use several boats. I am not familiar with fishing license regs.

    As a kayak guide I’ll add this. Most of my clients are catch and release but I am not opposed to people keeping any legal fish that, as a licensed angler, they are entitled to take. I believe there are some kayak anglers who keep everything that’s legal. Most of my clients are more interested in the sport, so it’s hardly the massacre out there. The clients pay for their license. No license exists that cover my clients. If there was I would get it. The clients are great, with most of the state residents usually already having their fishing license anyway but the out of state folks happily get the license they are required to have to go on a kayak charter with me.

    I’d get the captains license if it was required. But why exactly would you be a captain if people are “their own captain”.

    What I have a problem with: I am an insured guide running a legitimate business, sponsored by great companies and gladly pay my taxes on my income. The others doing the same thing often seem to come and go. They don’t usually have any first aid and/or CPR training, or any liability insurance of any kind. It is ripe for regulation because I have seen many situations where these “guides” are putting their paying customers in peril. Sure, that makes them personally liable but for the consumer should something happen “what’s 100% of nothing?? “.

    I don’t lump all people into any one category. So I’ll defend my own “choices” in this case as well. It is not simple to make a living as a guide. What is legal for someone to do in many facets of life doesn’t necessarily mean it’s right. I work hard for what I get in the entertainment industry of being a fishing guide. I’m not insulted by the original poster’s insinuation but with the extra comment here I wanted to say that I don’t see the application for a captains license in this case but I have been a longtime proponent of regulating this facet of the industry.

    I’ll do what is legally required, of course, but right now I’m doing things that are not required but I believe should be.

    Please discuss Tom’s other topic proposals as well. I will revisit those but only had time to respond to this particular one, which of course, is something that I do have an insider position.

    Neil

  • #138507

    Jim Klopfer
    Member

    Let me state that I have nothing against kayak guides, if I implied that, I apologize. I just think that it is a loophole that some guides use to their benefit. I have documented experience, passed a difficult exam, am subject to random drug testing, medical physicals are required, have extra expenses related to these things, etc. Why should a guide who takes clients out in kayaks not be subject to the same standards? I believe that clients are safer in my boat than they are in kayaks.

    Yes, they are “their own captain” but they are relying on the “guides” knowledge, experience and competency for their safety, and the guide realizes a monetary gain. IMO, a USCG license should be required. It would actually help the legitimate guides like yourself by weeding out those who are not competent.

    “What I have a problem with: I am an insured guide running a legitimate business, sponsored by great companies and gladly pay my taxes on my income. The others doing the same thing often seem to come and go. They don’t usually have any first aid and/or CPR training, or any liability insurance of any kind. It is ripe for regulation because I have seen many situations where these “guides” are putting their paying customers in peril. Sure, that makes them personally liable but for the consumer should something happen “what’s 100% of nothing?? “.”

    I agree with this 100%, the same issues pertain to guides with a deck license as well. $1,000,000 liability is only $500 a year, +/-, not a big deal.

  • #138510

    Tom
    Member

    Excellent dialogue and input folks. Greatly appreciated. I will try to comment later on my personal views on some of these issues. At this point my daughter is doing the mandatory boater license and possibly the “Cats Gone Wild” topic. Not sure about my son yet…

  • #138529

    Tom
    Member

    Beagle wrote: Here are some of my thoughts:

    1: There are too many exceptions to who needs a saltwater license. Specifically why are people over 65 exempted and those on welfare? There are impacts on federal money received, which I think is the intent of “licensing” without a fee. I think the state rates are very fair and that all residents should have to pay for a license because they use the resource and require enforcement. This would increase revenue and allow more resources (if funds channeled) to the resource.
    2: There are too many restrictive manatee zones. Manatees are at a historical high given the environment. Most of the zones are the result of developers buying off development at the expense of recreational fishermen and in areas that do not affect the manatees (see east shore Tampa Bay). I believe this is true, especially the area inside of the 6 foot contour on the east shore of Tampa Bay. A lot of studies show manatee populations are strong. However, political suicide to take it on.
    3: The rule requiring a boating course for younger people is discriminatory. Everyone who operates a boat should be required to have a boater safety course documented. I would be a proponent of this, drawing the analogy to a drivers license. Would generate maybe some revenue that could up enforcement. Also, could allow a points system for repeat offenders. I would not favor red light cameras on drawbridges (jk!).
    4: The license fees for out of state people are too low. Most states are 10:1 in their ratio. I am wholeheartedly in favor of this. We have a great resource, and if you don’t have residence here you should pay a premium to partake of it! Many who winter here have the discretionary income to pay for it.
    5: The fact that if you or me (or an out of state angler) go with a licensed guide you do not have to purchase a license. Many states require this. And, the cost for a 6 pack license is only $200 per year. People who can afford a charter can afford a license. And these people take a disproportionate amount of the harvested fish. For $200 a year for all those clients. This is a tough one. I actually at first would oppose this because of the impact on the charter captains who are already slammed by the recession. However, if the out of staters purchased a one or three day license it would not be such an impact. Maybe an idea would be a surcharge from the state passed on through the guide to the client. Like maybe $20.00 per person per any part of a day or whole day UNLESS they have a license. I do think this is a revenue opportunity and that the yearly rate for the guide license is very unrepresented in the relatively low annual fee.

    6: Why does a guide who is in a powerboat have to have license but those who are in a paddle fishery do not? I don’t get this one. The rule should be the same – if a guide then be licensed and pay as a guide. I think it would level the playing field and raise the bar.
    7: Cats are well documented as causing harm to native wildlife, especially birds. They are predators. Why is it OK to leave them free outside of our homes? As Stumpmaster notes cats are predators. They cause a lot of damage. I would be in favor of enacting this but wonder how in the world it could be enforced, especially with all the unwanted reproduction going on. Maybe a stricter licensing requirement and penalties to reclaim if caught outside, combined with free or incentivized neuter/spay program?
    8: Fertilizer. Agree it contributes to algae blooms. Data supports that. But why ban from personal use starting next year and still allow for golf courses, many of which are located near estuaries? I hate golf. Ban the sport as a whole!!!! Seriously, I wonder with relatively low % of folks who play the sport that they are given such a disproportionate amount of water and fertilizer rights. Maybe because business gets done on the golf course?
  • #138535

    Ken Roy
    Participant

    You are way off on the price of a 6 Pack license. My last one (6 years ago) was over $400.

    Re: Retirees. Make that Retirees that move here after retirement.
    Re: Welfare. Make them pay. Most of them make far more than folks on SS.

    I firmly agree with a safe boating course for young people. I also think that people without previous boating experience should have to take the same course.

    I definitely agree with a 3 day license for out of staters fishing with guides. This should not impact the guides and would be an excellent source of revenue.

    Kayak Guides? Maybe. As far as full time charterboat operators go, most are competent. Part time charter operators–a helluva bunch of them suck. I got my first OUPV (6-Pack) in 1963. When I got itm you had to sweat bullets because there were no “Pre Tests,” Courses or such. You Dang well had to study plus you had to go to Miami or New Orleans for testing, not right in your home town. One thing I’d like to see is a residency requirement of at least 5 years before allowing a guide license. After all, a guide should have local knowledge. Coming down here from NY, Michigan, North Carolina or wherever sure doesn’t prepare you to be a guide no matter how good you were up there.

  • #138538
    Grandoug
    Grandoug
    Participant

    captkenroy wrote:

    Re: Retirees. Make that Retirees that move here after retirement.
    Re: Welfare. Make them pay. Most of them make far more than folks on SS.

    I firmly agree with a safe boating course for young people. I also think that people without previous boating experience should have to take the same course.

    I definitely agree with a 3 day license for out of staters fishing with guides. This should not impact the guides and would be an excellent source of revenue.

    Kayak Guides? Maybe. As far as full time charterboat operators go, most are competent. Part time charter operators–a helluva bunch of them suck. I got my first OUPV (6-Pack) in 1963. When I got itm you had to sweat bullets because there were no “Pre Tests,” Courses or such. You Dang well had to study plus you had to go to Miami or New Orleans for testing, not right in your home town. One thing I’d like to see is a residency requirement of at least 5 years before allowing a guide license. After all, a guide should have local knowledge. Coming down here from NY, Michigan, North Carolina or wherever sure doesn’t prepare you to be a guide no matter how good you were up there.

    Amen and Amen, brother. A person that professes him/her self to be a “guide” should be able to pass:
    1) a first aid course
    2) a Captain’s License test, including a boating test
    3) take and pass a test designed to demonstrate local fishing knowledge and skills

    A business card and shirt with your name on it doesn’t mean you are a “captain” or guide…IMO

  • #138539

    Jim Klopfer
    Member

    Grandoug wrote: [QUOTE=captkenroy]

    Re: Retirees. Make that Retirees that move here after retirement.
    Re: Welfare. Make them pay. Most of them make far more than folks on SS.

    I firmly agree with a safe boating course for young people. I also think that people without previous boating experience should have to take the same course.

    I definitely agree with a 3 day license for out of staters fishing with guides. This should not impact the guides and would be an excellent source of revenue.

    Kayak Guides? Maybe. As far as full time charterboat operators go, most are competent. Part time charter operators–a helluva bunch of them suck. I got my first OUPV (6-Pack) in 1963. When I got itm you had to sweat bullets because there were no “Pre Tests,” Courses or such. You Dang well had to study plus you had to go to Miami or New Orleans for testing, not right in your home town. One thing I’d like to see is a residency requirement of at least 5 years before allowing a guide license. After all, a guide should have local knowledge. Coming down here from NY, Michigan, North Carolina or wherever sure doesn’t prepare you to be a guide no matter how good you were up there.

    Amen and Amen, brother. A person that professes him/her self to be a “guide” should be able to pass:
    1) a first aid course
    2) a Captain’s License test, including a boating test
    3) take and pass a test designed to demonstrate local fishing knowledge and skills

    A business card and shirt with your name on it doesn’t mean you are a “captain” or guide…IMO

    [/QUOTE]

    (3) My buddies and I have talked about this before. Some form of accreditation. The problem is, it is very subjective. 80% of my clients fish once or twice a year, what good does being able to sight cast to reds have to do with anything? Being able to bend the rods is more important. A good fisherman does not equal a good guide. The internet is a great equalizer. I had to earn my reputation, now all a guy needs is a hot-lick website. Anybody can catch fish with Stu Apte on the boat, do it with mom and two 6 year olds who fish once every two years.

  • #138549

    mike
    Member

    captklopfer wrote:

    [QUOTE=Grandoug][QUOTE=captkenroy]

    Re: Retirees. Make that Retirees that move here after retirement.
    Re: Welfare. Make them pay. Most of them make far more than folks on SS.

    I firmly agree with a safe boating course for young people. I also think that people without previous boating experience should have to take the same course.

    I definitely agree with a 3 day license for out of staters fishing with guides. This should not impact the guides and would be an excellent source of revenue.

    Kayak Guides? Maybe. As far as full time charterboat operators go, most are competent. Part time charter operators–a helluva bunch of them suck. I got my first OUPV (6-Pack) in 1963. When I got itm you had to sweat bullets because there were no “Pre Tests,” Courses or such. You Dang well had to study plus you had to go to Miami or New Orleans for testing, not right in your home town. One thing I’d like to see is a residency requirement of at least 5 years before allowing a guide license. After all, a guide should have local knowledge. Coming down here from NY, Michigan, North Carolina or wherever sure doesn’t prepare you to be a guide no matter how good you were up there.

    Amen and Amen, brother. A person that professes him/her self to be a “guide” should be able to pass:
    1) a first aid course
    2) a Captain’s License test, including a boating test
    3) take and pass a test designed to demonstrate local fishing knowledge and skills

    A business card and shirt with your name on it doesn’t mean you are a “captain” or guide…IMO

    [/QUOTE]

    (3) My buddies and I have talked about this before. Some form of accreditation. The problem is, it is very subjective. 80% of my clients fish once or twice a year, what good does being able to sight cast to reds have to do with anything? Being able to bend the rods is more important. A good fisherman does not equal a good guide. The internet is a great equalizer. I had to earn my reputation, now all a guy needs is a hot-lick website. Anybody can catch fish with Stu Apte on the boat, do it with mom and two 6 year olds who fish once every two years.

    [/QUOTE] and a drug test…that’s it for my soapbox.

    Mike

  • #138582

    So there are some pretenders. Don’t they weed themselves out fast enough? I’ve tried to hire guides on my own observations but also recommendations. Just because someone is fairly new to an area does not mean they won’t provide a great service. Local knowledge doesn’t necessarily mean safety. One of your longest standing captains in the Bay area hit an oyster bar when I was with him and we were all a little bruised from it.

    I’ve gone on one where it turned out to be one of the pretenders but he worked hard at it, we had an enjoyable day and I wasn’t sorry with the choice. He didn’t last. No matter how hot the web site as stated, they still have to earn their keep.

    I don’t see this post as much as a project for your kids as I do for yourself. Which is all right but just say so. It is a good topic. Sorry, but if it is a project for them, how are they ingesting the info. Through your filter or are they reading everyones input?

    I can afford to buy the license as an out of stater even if you do raise it to 10 times the cost of a resident. But why does the guy who just moved there, paying no state tax get to pay 20 bucks a year and I have to pay five hundred even though I acually lived there for 31 years? Florida license fees have always been low. But they’ve increased recently and I can tell you that will accelerate in the future. I figured part of the appeal of Florida was that the non resident visitors appreciated a decent license rate, maybe even found it rewarding for all the other money they drop in your communities. The pure tourists are probably taking party boats and charters and don’t have to buy the license as much. From what my old neighbors say, The out of staters are a lot of the folks who hold property there (snow birds) would be the ones that buy the bulk of the fishing licenses and aren’t the people faulting on their mortgages.

    I do not disagree with everything I read here but I think it’s interesting that there is a desire to treat so many as “outsiders”.

    Ray

  • #138594
    Neil Taylor
    Neil Taylor
    Keymaster

    captklopfer wrote: Let me state that I have nothing against kayak guides, if I implied that, I apologize. I just think that it is a loophole that some guides use to their benefit. I have documented experience, passed a difficult exam, am subject to random drug testing, medical physicals are required, have extra expenses related to these things, etc. Why should a guide who takes clients out in kayaks not be subject to the same standards? I believe that clients are safer in my boat than they are in kayaks.

    Yes, they are “their own captain” but they are relying on the “guides” knowledge, experience and competency for their safety, and the guide realizes a monetary gain. IMO, a USCG license should be required. It would actually help the legitimate guides like yourself by weeding out those who are not competent.

    It’s OK, I didn’t think that was exactly the case but it was worthy of the discussion. I will contend my clients are as safe if not safer in my watercraft as they are in yours. Sorry but that’s my opinion.

    I’m all for regulation. While we’re talking about the same thing which is training that will weed out some people, the captain designation isn’t technically what I would call “applicable” with the people in their own craft under my direction. But I don’t care. I’ll do whatever is legally required.

    Beagle- I do not understand what “leveling the playing field” means. I occupy a niche that is way different and not really even in competition with the powerboat guides. I get clients that specifically want to do this kind of fishing. Leveling the playing field means what? I believe in giving people what they want and in a lot of cases that means sending trips to the guides who operate out of power boats. In this network, those people do the same thing. Three of my July trips were referrals from captains who had contacts that wanted to learn how to fish from a kayak. I reread it several times. I am a proponent for changes, I always have been. But I don’t know what raising the bar and leveling the playing field even mean.

  • #138599

    Tom
    Member

    MrJingles wrote:
    I don’t see this post as much as a project for your kids as I do for yourself. Which is all right but just say so. It is a good topic. Sorry, but if it is a project for them, how are they ingesting the info. Through your filter or are they reading everyones input?

    Ray

    Ray – I am cutting and pasting the info into Word for them to read. I don’t let them read it straight because of one of the more “adult-oriented” responses. There are many topics (parking elephants, people over 65 taking road tests for driver’s licenses, rebating property taxes to home schoolers, …) also under discussion. You know actually, this is pretty good debate and I don’t even know why I am bothering to respond to your questioning my motive! I think I was pretty clear when I weighed in with MY opinion and as far as influencing my kids thinking, I think and in fact KNOW that is my job as a parent!
    Neil – I understand and know you are a proponent for change, but what I am thinking is a guide is a guide – if on a powerboat, a paddlecraft, or fishing from bridges. Taking money for the service.
    Thanks for the good discussion.
  • #138602

    Fred Arledge
    Member

    Beagle, this howl from the North Woods: Most here know that the Captain license is a Coast Guard thing to test boat operation knowledge and has nothing at all to do with fishing. Zero. Here in the land of black flies the state requires anyone guiding for anything, fishing, hunting, hiking, camping, whitewater rafting, kayaking, any dang thing taking folks outdoors for money,

    to pass a Maine Guide license test.
    Available for whatever category. Very detailed and not so easy to get. Seems like a good thing to me.
  • #138608

    Beagle,
    The written word perhaps seems harsher than the spoken.

    It looks like part of the trend on this one was to blast anyone who is newer to guiding in your state. The yankee thing goes on everywhere. I didn’t like sharing the roads with the Canadians a lot of the winter months when I lived there but they were good for the local economies.

    Of the lets charge them ten time what I have to pay types: I can see the same type people making BP claims because of lost tourist dollars from the spill. Maybe I’m wrong.

    O. Captain Fred raises a great point. The license doesn’t have anything to do with guiding. Forcing a kayak guide to get a captains license is kind of dumb. Absolutely something should be done for consumer protection. In that particular segment of the business, the lack of requirements is definitely scary. The integrity and professionalism of people who run their business to a higher standard is admirable. I wouldn’t pound those folks too hard. If you do the math I bet you will find that even the best of those guys isn’t getting rich.

  • #138619

    Tom
    Member

    OCF – interesting point. Good one. Had not thought or heard of that.

    Mr. Jingles/Ray – there really is no out to get anyone on my behalf here. I think we think differently and that is fine, communication with the quickly written word is difficult I agree – and there are many many sides to each point. Once again, just idea/thought generating is my point. No harm or foul from my perspective – although I will continue to shield my kids to some degree.

    I do see the point that some of what is in a USCG license may not be applicable to paddling, but a lot is too. I think Fred’s point is very interesting.

  • #138622
    Neil Taylor
    Neil Taylor
    Keymaster

    OriginalCaptFred wrote: Beagle, this howl from the North Woods: Most here know that the Captain license is a Coast Guard thing to test boat operation knowledge and has nothing at all to do with fishing. Zero. Here in the land of black flies the state requires anyone guiding for anything, fishing, hunting, hiking, camping, whitewater rafting, kayaking, any dang thing taking folks outdoors for money,

    to pass a Maine Guide license test.
    Available for whatever category. Very detailed and not so easy to get. Seems like a good thing to me.

    That’s the gist of what I meant. This is what is more appropriate for a non motorized guide.

    Requiring a Coast Guard captain license is fine if that’s what they say is required but a program like this would be more appropriate. There are guides who take mothership trips which I do not do and no interest in doing. They are required to have that license. That’s absolutely different.

    Like Ray I believe that it is necessary for a change not to eliminate competition for me, but to protect the potential users of the service. I’ve taken people fishing who went with some of the others who don’t have any safety credentials or training. And some of the stories are bad. People were placed in situations they would never encounter on an outing with me. And expecting the unexpected I am ready to handle anything that may come up while minimizing the risks. I can tell you from watching what some of these “guides” do, they haven’t shopped an insurance policy or they couldn’t afford the premium payments.

    It is not an arrogance thing but experience. I could create such a program that would address the required training for non-motorized eco tour or kayak fishing guides. Safety is always first. But it’s not my ball of wax. If they ever went that way and created the requirements they would at least benefit from including me in their program development.

  • #138624

    John J Roche
    Member

    Here’s two stories that seem to be topical, Tom.

    The first tells of “overfishing” verses water pollution.

    Then the second tells of how the water pollution/polluters are trying to continue doing what they do. Actually our government trying to help them.
    Tiny fish’s decline threatens Atlantic ecosystems (08/08/2011)

    The decline of the Atlantic menhaden, an oily and bony fish at the bottom of the food chain, could threaten the ecosystems of the Atlantic Ocean and Chesapeake Bay.

    According to the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission, which will meet tomorrow to discuss the fish, the menhaden’s population has fallen from 90 billion a half century ago to 18 billion today.

    Humans don’t eat the tiny menhaden but commercially fish it for grinding into meal to feed farm fish and livestock. In the wild, striped bass, bluefish, swordfish, king mackerel, tuna, loons and eagles all feed on the fish.

    “Menhaden is ecologically critical to the marine ecosystem along the East Coast,” said Bill Goldsborough, fisheries director for the Chesapeake Bay Foundation. “It’s not much of an exaggeration to call it the most important fish in the sea. It’s an essential link in the food chain.”

    Environmental groups claim that overfishing has caused the menhaden’s dramatic decline. Thirteen states have banned Omega Protein Inc. from harvesting menhaden in their waters, which it does with large ships and purse seine nets. Virginia allows Omega access to all of its waters.

    Omega Protein fished about 80 percent of the 160,000 metric tons of menhaden caught last year along the Atlantic Coast. The company blames poor water quality rather than overfishing for the fish’s decline.

    “I think there’s this notion that environmentalists have put out for a long time that this is a depleted stock and the reason behind the depletion is Omega Protein,” said Ben Landry, a company spokesman (Darryl Fears, Washington Post/San Francisco Chronicle, Aug. 7). — AP

    WATER POLLUTION: Paul Quinlan, E&E reporter

    Florida environmentalists are accusing Rep. Cliff Stearns (R-Fla.) of stacking the witness panel of his congressional hearing on EPA water pollution rules with representatives of polluting industries.

    The House Energy and Commerce subcommittee on oversight, which Stearns chairs, will meet tomorrow at the University of Central Florida to hold the sixth in a series of hearings meant to broadcast the message that Obama administration regulations are overly burdensome job killers that are stifling economic recovery.

    Tomorrow’s hearing will focus on the numeric water pollution limits EPA proposed to replace Florida’s descriptive, verbal standards, which environmentalists argue are too vague. EPA proposed the new limits in accordance with a settlement agreement reached with environmental groups after they sued the agency in 2009, alleging it had failed to properly enforce the Clean Water Act.

    Defending the agency will be EPA Regional Administrator Gwendolyn Keyes Fleming, the first scheduled witness. Criticizing the agency’s efforts will be everyone else invited to testify: a state agriculture official and representatives of utilities, the county government, the building industry and the dairy industry, according to a committee memo.

    Earthjustice attorney David Guest called the hearing a “sham” and an “embarrassment.”

    “This is not a public hearing. This is a chance to offer, publicly, reasons on why the polluters should be exempt from the law,” Guest said. “It’s so obviously contrary to the law, to the facts, and to good public policy that Representative Stearns is not willing to take the risk that someone might tell the truth in front of everyone.”

    “This is a surprising and disappointing about-face for Rep. Stearns,” Sierra Club Florida staff director Frank Jackalone said in a statement, noting that Stearns was the only Florida Republican to vote against an amendment by Rep. Tom Rooney (R-Fla.) earlier this year that would have blocked EPA from moving forward with the limits.

    The meeting comes as industry and state officials continue to battle EPA and environmentalists in court over the rules, which take effect next March. Last week, an appeals court dismissed a challenge brought by water utilities (Greenwire, Aug. 4).

    The biggest disagreement between the two sides of the debate centers on costs. EPA estimated the statewide cost of compliance with the new limits at $135 million to $206 million annually, or between $40 and $71 a year per household. Industry puts the annual cost at between $5.7 billion and $8.4 billion, extrapolating that individual water and sewer rates would rise by hundreds of dollars.

    Environmentalists say those figures are scare tactics based on the deliberately false assumption that sewage would have to be treated to drinking water standards by expensive, “reverse-osmosis” filtration technology. Richard Budell, director of the office of agricultural water policy at the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, testified to as much before another House committee in June. He will appear again at tomorrow’s hearing, testifying alongside EPA’s Fleming.

    “Florida wastewater utilities believe that expensive reverse-osmosis technologies will have to be employed in order for them to comply with the requirements,” Budell testified in June. “These technologies are not only costly to implement and maintain, but they require an enormous amount of energy to operate.”

    A spokesman for Stearns did not respond to a request for comment on the hearing.

    Last week, the congressman issued a statement that said “numerous studies in Florida indicate that the Washington-imposed standards will have a devastating impact on Florida’s job creation, economy, and certain agencies.”

    “On Tuesday, we will hear from witnesses how these EPA standards will affect Florida and from the EPA on why it is imposing its standards,” Stearns said in the statement.

    Schedule: The hearing will be at 10 a.m. tomorrow at the Alumni Center of the University of Central Florida, 4000 Central Florida Blvd., Building 126, Orlando, Fla., 32816.

    Witnesses: Panel One: Gwendolyn Keyes Fleming, southeast regional administrator for EPA; Richard Budell, director of the office of agricultural water policy, Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. Panel Two: Paul Steinbrecher, president of the Florida Water Environment Association Utility Council; Kelli Hammer Levy, watershed management section manager of the Department of Environment and Infrastructure for Pinellas County, Fla.; William Dever, president of the Florida Gulf Coast Building and Construction Trades Council; Ron St. John of Alliance Dairy; and David Richardson, assistant general manager for water and wastewater, Gainesville Regional Utilities.

    Tom, This meeting is soon and in your neighborhood and it might be a great learning experience for the kids.

  • #138645

    jad1097
    Member

    LivelyBaits wrote:

    Had to come back and say the biggest one:

    Shorebound. Someone will try to refute me and say “they do have to have a license”. OK, how much does that cost now? ($0).

    where can you get a free one? Free as in it cost no money whatsoever? Can I walk into any tackle store that sells a fishing license and get it for free? If there is a convenience fee, it is not free.

  • #138646

    Tom
    Member

    John – I briefly saw both your messages but had to run to the vets. Now the second is gone – the one with the local meeting. Can you repost? Thanks! Tom

    P.S. It has to be a Florida statute but I am sure the issues are similar in some ways to the Chessie here with other species.
  • #138675

    John J Roche
    Member

    Beagle wrote: John – I briefly saw both your messages but had to run to the vets. Now the second is gone – the one with the local meeting. Can you repost? Thanks! Tom

    P.S. It has to be a Florida statute but I am sure the issues are similar in some ways to the Chessie here with other species.

    Schedule: The hearing will be at 10 a.m. tomorrow at the Alumni Center of the University of Central Florida, 4000 Central Florida Blvd., Building 126, Orlando, Fla., 32816.

    Witnesses: Panel One: Gwendolyn Keyes Fleming, southeast regional administrator for EPA; Richard Budell, director of the office of agricultural water policy, Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. Panel Two: Paul Steinbrecher, president of the Florida Water Environment Association Utility Council; Kelli Hammer Levy, watershed management section manager of the Department of Environment and Infrastructure for Pinellas County, Fla.; William Dever, president of the Florida Gulf Coast Building and Construction Trades Council; Ron St. John of Alliance Dairy; and David Richardson, assistant general manager for water and wastewater, Gainesville Regional Utilities.

  • #138679

    Jim Klopfer
    Member

    LivelyBaits wrote: [QUOTE=captklopfer]Let me state that I have nothing against kayak guides, if I implied that, I apologize. I just think that it is a loophole that some guides use to their benefit. I have documented experience, passed a difficult exam, am subject to random drug testing, medical physicals are required, have extra expenses related to these things, etc. Why should a guide who takes clients out in kayaks not be subject to the same standards? I believe that clients are safer in my boat than they are in kayaks.

    Yes, they are “their own captain” but they are relying on the “guides” knowledge, experience and competency for their safety, and the guide realizes a monetary gain. IMO, a USCG license should be required. It would actually help the legitimate guides like yourself by weeding out those who are not competent.

    It’s OK, I didn’t think that was exactly the case but it was worthy of the discussion. I will contend my clients are as safe if not safer in my watercraft as they are in yours. Sorry but that’s my opinion.[/QUOTE]

    I respect your opinion, but I see no way to agree with it. Your clients must unhook their own fish at times, right? Mine never do. Physical conditioning is a non-factor for me, not so for paddlers. A squall comes up and a 20′ bay boat is not safer than a kayak? Not to mention idiot boaters which you have very little control over other than being in places thjey can’t navigate. What about the need to “relieve” himself? Or even just climbing in and out of the boats. Kayak fishing is fun and certainly has it’s place, as do the guides who provide that service, but I will disagree that kayaking does not pose more inherint risks. And, I won’t even go into tarpon fishing from one.

  • #138685

    Chuck Moser
    Participant

    I have lived in Florida since 1978. I am now 71 and retired. I have purchased a license and snook stamp every year I have lived here before I turned 65. Having said that, the fishing license is a TAX, a USER TAX and usually dodges being put into the general fund. All the money gleaned from the tax is used towards maintaining our fisheries and improving our fisheries. I would gladly give up my freebe if they were to change the law. Furthermore, fishing from the bank or fishing from anywhere should require a license. Remember it’s to improve the fisherie. Out of state license’s are to cheap. They need to step up to fish our wonderful fishing opportunities.

  • #138687
    Neil Taylor
    Neil Taylor
    Keymaster

    captklopfer wrote: I respect your opinion, but I see no way to agree with it. Your clients must unhook their own fish at times, right? Mine never do. Physical conditioning is a non-factor for me, not so for paddlers. A squall comes up and a 20′ bay boat is not safer than a kayak? Not to mention idiot boaters which you have very little control over other than being in places thjey can’t navigate. What about the need to “relieve” himself? Or even just climbing in and out of the boats. Kayak fishing is fun and certainly has it’s place, as do the guides who provide that service, but I will disagree that kayaking does not pose more inherint risks. And, I won’t even go into tarpon fishing from one.

    Your comments represent misconceptions about kayaks, kayak fishing and also on how I conduct my guide service. For anyone there is never zero risk regardless of what venue they choose. Six years now and I’ve never had an injury or significant problem and that is because I have minimized the risks. Your list of inherent risks has some problems with it.

    No, they do not handle the fish on their own. I have certain clients who have skills to do it but there are certain fish they will never touch either. I also do not use lures with treble hooks so a very good reason. I’m right there with them and I handle all of that systematically.

    Physical conditioning is a non-factor. It doesn’t take extraordinary power or conditioning to move a kayak through the water. I have certain potential clients with physical limitations that I will send to a guide who has a boat. Should the need ever arise, I have a tow rope to clip them off to me and I’ll get them back to the launch.

    A squall comes up and we sit it out at a pre-determined Safe Spot. No, we can’t get up and run at a speed to outrun a storm but I will add that I’ve seen the power boat people hammered for trying. Engine stalls and they’re caught in open water while we’re sitting safely on a low spot, kayaks and gear secured until the storm passes.

    Fishing kayaks are made with a wider center beam which makes stability way better than kayaks of a decade ago allowing for easily getting in and out of them. They are never allowed to exit the boat without checking with me. That also applies to standing in my boats. They will never be allowed to get out in areas with oysters or where it is deep muddy bottom. They must wear appropriate footwear.

    Multiple clients must stay a safe distance from one another. A problem I’ve heard so many people in boats talk about regularly is “my buddy hooked me with a lure on the backcast.” Never going to happen out there with me.

    Idiot power boaters running us over? Maybe if they had an air boat. I minimize time that can be spent in trafficked areas and literally, most of the power boats have to be on trolling motor where I have people fishing a majority of the time. The only realistic danger is the sailboat folks. They don’t make much noise on the move and (not all of them) a lot of them don’t have great control over where they’re going and seem kind of oblivious to what’s in front of them.

    I take great care with decisions and I’ll postpone some trips that you may still take someone out. That’s my err on the side of caution. Sometimes it turns out to be the wrong decision which is all right. I’ll still be taking them on another day.

  • #138689

    saltlife84
    Member

    Ok I’ve been reading this debate and here is my opinion. The reson a guide with a boat is held to a higher standard and is required to undergo more screening is because it is more of a risk then a kayak. You have a motor, you are in deep water sometimes overnight, you have a piece of equipment that needs to be maintained in offer to be safe. If a kayak sinks which is nearly impossible you can just stand up. If a boat sinks you have a much larger scenario playing out then you do in a kayak. Not to mention, only certain people are going to be able to attend a kayak tarpon guide, I’m assuming that isn’t open to anyone who wants to try. On a kayak you have no risk of fire, or explosion. There’s very little room for mechanical failure. There is a whole list of reasons as to why a kayak guide doesn’t need to undergo the same tests and exams as a 30’+ powerboat guide.

  • #138692
    Neil Taylor
    Neil Taylor
    Keymaster

    I’m not bowed up and arguing with captklopfer but addressing fallacies about kayaks and kayak fishing.

    Tarpon I addressed previously. The company that wrote my policy appreciated that I was forthright about the kayaks and the situations. Smaller tarpon are no problem. But the larger tarpon are creating a situation that does create much larger risks. So those trips aren’t something I offer and so they did not create problems with being insured. The more problematic a situation is the more important the appropriate vessel.

    I don’t call people who do it “stupid”. I am just saying that they’re accepting more risk, particularly if they don’t have a skill set that’s adequate for that situation. Part of it for their safety, part of it for the fish. I’ll hear it every year “This tarpon towed my kayak around for five hours.” That’s no good either.

    Please take the time to address all of Tom’s topic proposals. This particular part of the topic has probably been covered fairly well.

  • #138717

    Tom
    Member

    Thanks for the perspective Chuck. It is a user tax.

    And thanks John – can’t get over to Orlando tomorrow night.
    Captklopfer – I have been on both sides of the coin (guide and guided) and have to say that physical conditioning is ALWAYS a factor to some point, especially in the heat of summer.
    And Neil has a vested interest in keeping clients alive – DEAD PEOPLE DON’T PAY!
    If you all want to keep providing input that is fine, and I will too, but the kids have chosen their topics as of last evening. But input is always good!
  • #138819

    Good luck to your kids in their project.

  • #138835

    Tom
    Member

    Thanks Mr. Jingles.

  • #138838

    Fred Arledge
    Member

    Beagle wrote:

    And Neil has a vested interest in keeping clients alive – DEAD PEOPLE DON’T PAY!
    Didn’t one of RW Whites early books end with a guide returning to Dinkins with his customer dead on the deck? Another guide says “hey, you ain’t supposed to bring your clients back dead!”
    And the guide replies “At least I brought him back”
    Once in a while a customer would ask me if they should pay before we left the dock or after we returned. I would always answer that if paid later I would take more pains to get them back alive. Few saw the humor. At least at the time.
  • #138849
    Neil Taylor
    Neil Taylor
    Keymaster

    It says it on my website: “A perfect record of delivering people back alive”.

    Having one die out there makes it difficult to have them going on multiple trips or doing any word-of-mouth advertising for me. I actually consider it just bad for business all around so I’d like to continue my streak of continued survival.

  • #138979

    Tom
    Member

    Good memory Fred. I am trying to remember the book. I remember the one with the tarpon tourney and Karl Sutter killing his bro-in-law and him floating with crabs….

    Neil – you just don’t carry a big enough cooler bag to handle the body….

  • #138982

    Actually he might. I just got this one by email notification:

    GoodSupplyOfBody Bags

    (I believe that was Colonel “Troutman”, appropo?!)

  • #139008

    Tom
    Member

    MrJingles wrote: Actually he might. I just got this one by email notification:

    GoodSupplyOfBody Bags

    (I believe that was Colonel “Troutman”, appropo?!)

    THAT is pretty funny! Good one Ray!
  • #139017
    Grandoug
    Grandoug
    Participant

    OriginalCaptFred wrote: [QUOTE=Beagle]

    And Neil has a vested interest in keeping clients alive – DEAD PEOPLE DON’T PAY!
    Didn’t one of RW Whites early books end with a guide returning to Dinkins with his customer dead on the deck? Another guide says “hey, you ain’t supposed to bring your clients back dead!”
    And the guide replies “At least I brought him back”
    Once in a while a customer would ask me if they should pay before we left the dock or after we returned. I would always answer that if paid later I would take more pains to get them back alive. Few saw the humor. At least at the time.

    [/QUOTE] OCF-Might have known you are a Randy reader. I can only aspire to live in a stilt house and have a hippie guru monk psycho teacher as my fishin’ buddy!

  • #139046
    Neil Taylor
    Neil Taylor
    Keymaster

    Aha, the fish body bag, I wish I had that angle before I wrote the review.

    “Bullseye!”

  • #418059
    ntaylor
    ntaylor
    Keymaster

    Twelve years now:  No injuries.

    A lot of it is about decisions.     There are days I won’t take the trip.    Seeing wild weather it’s one of those “I’m glad we aren’t out in that” scenario.      People make bad decisions.  People get killed.

    Several days ago I got into a discussion about kayak anglers wearing life vests.   Their side “everyone should wear one.”    My side:  I’ve never worn one a day in my life.   BUT when I’ve been in a situation, my vest is so close I have a grip on it withing one second of the problem occurring.    My point, if you fish by yourself, wear a vest.     Something happens, you may end up surviving it.    Me, not married, no kids:  I’m going to continue to not wear one.

    If I drown you all can make fun of me for it.

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